Wah .. long post. To do justice and to explain things i'll reply as a post instead of a comment.


Hey, it's not fair to use the NoS games as an example .. since it wasnt Navin and me who were constantly losing to him. EVERYONE who played against him lost .. he is just in a different level. As for blaming you for the defeat .. we were just joking la (or at least i was). It was definately "lebeh kes" to push the ctr all the way :p.

Yes it's true NoS didnt complain about people missing to farm .. since he was the one doing the megafarming run. In case you didnt notice .. he goes missing for the beginning part of the game and only appears at the end of the game 5 levels higher then all of us and then proceeds to wipe us out. Yes it's true that it's a valid strategy but i was pretty sure it wasn't that much fun for the defenders to play when 1 person runs off to do that (unless the team agrees) .. the problem will start when everyone wants to go farm and no one wants to push or defend. Cause if i have to choose between staying to defend the tower in a hopeless outnumbered battle or to go and farm and get all my cool items, what do you think I would prefer ?

Forget about farming. If NoS wasn't a mega farmer and got his +5 levels higher by last hitting ( or magical powers) it still comes to show that he is a superior player compared to everyone of us. So any team with him will win. Period. To use him as an argument to validate tactics is quite biased I would say. I mean if I brought a pro-gamer who shouts and ask everyone to stick together and we always win , does that mean my approach to DotA is correct ?

Might does not make right. DotA should be a team game and such should focus on teamplay and working together to pawn opponents. Thats just my views however.

I know that there are those who believe strongly that the point of DotA is to go and farm and farm and farm to get items then only go and pawn opponents. Yes this is a sure way to win if it works. But this will only work if 1 or 2 person is the only one doing it .. cause if all 5 wants to go and farm .. you'll run out of neutral creeps and run around the forest for nothing and you'll run out of towers fast (if you dont want to come to defend cause you only need 100 gp to buy butterfly). You will also become prime target for opponents who believe in sticking together (like what happened to me when i was dirge and all 5 was hunting for me in the forest). Still it's a valid strategy so I won't say don't do it. I only ask that the time we choose to use the "farm till you drop" approach , let ME go farm to get all my items while you guys defend. Then i can come and pawn everyone. If you guys like the tactics then we can adopt it :).

(Point i am trying to make is, the game is only fun for the farmer , not the ones that has to do the dirty job of defending when outnumbered)

As for asking John and Arvind NOT to take characters that they are interested in just because they are bad in is quite unfair. Why ? Remember when we all started playing DotA together and we played AP all the time .. that was the time for us to pick our favourite heroes and learn to play them and that is all that these 2 guys are doing. How else are you supposed to learn to play characters you like with human players if you dont get to choose them ? Imagine if you had started by playing with people who were more experienced than you , and they start dissing your skill in using a character because you caused the loss. Thats still ok, it'll motivate you to work on that character. Imagine instead then absolutely ban you from ever taking the character in AP ever again ... It's not that fun isnt it. So let's not get all holier-than-thou and just let them work on their characters. Relying on the 1/90 chance of getting the hero you want in AR is a bit far fetched since to get good at a character you need to try out different things till you find one that works. Remember that they both played much much less DotA then us so special consideration should be given when they choose characters. Of course, dissing them for mistakes should still be cool since that was how we learned :P.

As for Ben, he WAS a bit emo before meeting up for the game but he had said that he agrees with what Gopi said about mixing up players. So I think we can let the matter rest. But for the record, it's not cool to degrade people before playing. After playing can condemn them for mistakes but don't conveniently forget their successes. As Gopi was pointing out that Navin and I sometimes commit "actions such as DYING in opponents base due to pure stupidity(this is always followed up with a lame excuse)" but neglected to mention the amount of times that we have defied the odds to get the kills and return alive or the time when a "suicidal" move caused us to suddenly turn the tables and lead us to victory. Think back to the games where I use Barathum/Rexxar and Navin uses Lucifer/Razor (razorspeed !!) and see for yourself if you've been fair in passing judgement. I don't know about navin but I never made stupid excuses .. i only tell the truth .. "Gila kill" :)

The point here is that we all have different styles of play, who is to say if Gopi's farm till you drop approach is correct or wrong ? Or Shaun's and Kugans "i'm stealthed and its 3 vs 2 but I sure as hell aint gonna decloak and attack ... unless I can get sure kill" approach is correct or wrong ? Who can tell if Ben's conservative tactic of sticking to our side of the river and only going out for a counter push late-game is right or wrong ? Or if my suicidal strategy of jumping into a group of 3 people armed only with my owerwhelming machoness (koff koff) is right or wrong ?

Nobody.

But do you have a reason to complain if my suicidal moves gets us all killed ? Or if teamwork falls apart and everyone attack different targets ? Is it wrong to give the opinion that we lost because of "Bad Teamwork" ? I don't think its wrong to complain. Remember, it's ok to disagree and have different views. So, i blame my teammates when things turn out badly ? Who doesnt ? I can tell (and sometimes the whole cybercafe) with absolute certainty that even Gopi disses Arul and Kugan sometimes. Is that different that what Navin and I do ? I don't think so. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Complaining doesn't mean we claim to know EVERYTHING about DotA .. I don't need to play with Pro-gamers like Gopi did in order to know that.


But the point is, if it's in game .. LEAVE IT IN GAME. No need to get pissed off with people and spoil your friendship with others. For all the time I complain about Kugan not teamplaying, or John for sucking with Barathum (sorry John) or Arvin for sucking with Rikimaru (sorry man .. couldn't resist. I'll rest safe in the assurance that you wont read this anyway) do you see me purposely dumping them for DotA session ? (Ok last week with Kugan and Shaun dont count. That was for maintaing even numbers, and Kugan confirmed like 40 minutes before the game)

As for James. He doesn't complain much ... but I can tell you guys that is't because he has given up on complaining :p Still I agree with Gopi that James is fun to play with since he just strategizes and if things doesnt work out or people dont follow .. well too bad. He also tends to take characters that he can use well but I don't think everyone should .. then dota will be boring and I will always take Rexxar and James Drow and Navin Lucifer and Sai Kardell and Kugan Bone Clinks.

Maybe we can approach DotA in James-Zen way. Repeat after me : there is no victory . Only pixels.

So everyone listen to what Gopi has to say , he makes a good point but I would say it would be better if we left things as are now but just change our mindset and learn to accept the criticism and other conflicting views. I know that I do complain from time to time but I never take things personally and after the days session is over then its over. I dont keep grudges and neither should you. Remember , I am macho and macho men don't keep grudges.

DOTA THIS WEEKEND . Double session Morning and Night. Let me know.